Scientifically, are white people more intelligent than black people?

Cris- Thanks for replying to my comment. On my comment when i said my children are way above the intelligence level of African Americans at their age. To answer your question. I think a lot of it has to do with the influence not only my wife and i have in their lives but the Teachers and adults they are around.

I have a friend that got married three years ago. He has three kids from a former marriage and his new wife had two from her previous marriage. His kids are A and B kids in school. Her kids when they first got married were F's and C kids. These children are elementary age to middle school age children. Everyday when those kids got home he worked with them on their homework. He use to make them read every night before bed. He made them go to tutoring for the first two years. It is now three years later the kids do not need tutoring anymore they do their homework and are doing very well in school. At the end of school this year those kids had made the A and B honor role. So that is jst an example that i have to tell. I think a very big part of the " Intelligence " cycle is how you are raised.

Look at all the kids raised in the low income areas. Most of the children in those areas in my opinion have very poor intelligence levels. It is not because the child is born to be doomed with low intelligence. Its because the parents failed doing their part to raise their child. To me its not the child's fault when the parents do not do their part on raising their children. Like i said before i am an Officer in the Marines and have been for many years. I think one of the biggest reasons i am where i am today in life is because how i was raised. This might sound wrong but i think a lot of it has to do with very young people having children that are not even mature enough to take care of themselves let alone a child.

Its because the parents failed doing their part to raise their child

in all fairness, you can't forget that people who make less typically have to work more hours to make ends meet. Especially in these economic times. Parents that are working 2-3 jobs are unable to take the extra time or splurge on the pay for tutoring. Its harsh to say that these parents are failures, especially considering the vast majority of americans are in that boat.

Some of these parents are young and our modern society is not conducive for younger parents as it was 50 years ago. Nowadyas most people aren't secure until their late twenties early thirties. Back then a family starting out in their early twenties would be looking to home ownership and relying on job security.

Also considering that our school systems were a lot better then, many students were able to succeed then even if their parents were illiterate, as was the case for the baby boomer generation.

It isn't the children's fault if their parents are poor, misguided, drug addicts or illiterate. There was a time that our society understood that and went the extra mile to ensure that schools were well funded and children were able to overcome the obstacles of their parents.

However, once desegregation hit and many americans were mad at the government 'invasion' into the states. Americans for the first time in history began to pull their tax monies out of the education system. Families that were hurt the most, were those that lived in areas were tax revenues were the poorest. And disproportionatly that was minorities but it also included poor whites as well.

As a nation we have bastardized our public school system which used to be a way out for these kids. Now we leave children with no hope of escaping their domestic situation through their educational system.

By the time these kids get to high school, they are often so far behind that they drop out more out of frustration then anything else. Once that occurs its next to impossible to catch up to others that were more fortunate.

Basically everyone is running their last leg in the race and these impoverished kids are entering adult hood still at the starting line.

ohiogirl- I can agree with what you have said. However if you are a parent you make that extra time your child or children need. If you can not make time for your own children then you should not have children in the first place. I know what i just said was harsh. If your going to have children then you need to have time for them.

Yes some of the problem is in our education system. I agree with you 100%. If your child is not in a good school then the parents need to get involved. Again that would be making time for your childs best interest. If that does not work then the next best thing would be to move to a better school district. Yes i know times are hard and there are many people out there working many jobs. However that is no excuse to not make the proper time for your children.

There are way to many people out there having children that have no business having children in the first place ( at least at this time in their lives). To many kids are having kids. To me that is horrible. If you can not afford the time to spend with your children then don't have them. Having to work more than one job is no excuse in my opinion to say you just don't have the time.

I also agree with you that so many people are running on their last leg in the race and so many children are entering adult hood still at the starting line. To me that is the parents fault. Not the childs fault. That is the parent (s) failing on doing their job to properly raise their children. I am not saying in every case that is the case. You and many others might think that when i say, if your going to have kids then you need to make time for them. Having more than one job is no excuse to me. Yes times are hard for many people but if you do not make the proper time for your children then you as a parent have failed them. Whats the point in having children if you don't have time for them or just don't make the time for them?

If you can not make time for your own children then you should not have children in the first place. I know what i just said was harsh. If your going to have children then you need to have time for them.

So having children should be saved for the elite now? Are you aware that the majority of us wouldn't be here if people thought this way? Do you know how may parents had to work back breaking hours in the depression era? Do you realize how many people all over the world and throughout history have children they can't afford? The only difference between the here and now and then, is the modern view on who should and shouldn't be having kids. The view that a physician who works hard is more important then the janitor that works just as hard. Both jobs are essential to the function of society.

But we look down on the janitor who works hard and tell him he shouldn't have kids because his work isn't good enough for society. His standard of living isn't what it should be because he doesn't have the time to do what the school system (btw that his taxes go to pay for) should be doing.

Yes some of the problem is in our education system. I agree with you 100%. If your child is not in a good school then the parents need to get involved

Again modernized thinking that was brought to the foreground in the tax cutting days which started in the 70s.

My grandmother was raised in depression era. She, along with millions of others, couldnt go to school because they had try to work to get money. When my mother was born in the 50s my g'parents only had 3rd and 4th grade educations. If my mother had to only depend on them to help her she would have never have gotten to where she did later in life.

The baby boomer generation is the generation that had the biggest movment from poverty to middle class in this nations history. Also, their parents, the children of the depression, were the one of the least educated of the generations in our nations history.

The money that we made from the war wasn't invested on classes to make parents better parents. It went to the schools to allow the kids the ability to make good parents in the future.

So should parents be more responsible? Of course they should. No one disagrees with that.

But I think everyone should also be able to have money, afford health-care, and get a first class education. I also think there shouldn't be any war, poverty or disease.

Its nice to think about the way things should be.

In the meantime we have people who aren't doing what they should be and generations of Americans that are loosing the grounds that were gained in the fifties. The only realistic way we are going to break the cycle is by investing in the new generation. Not pointing fingers at the old and current generation.

well stated with excellent points!

ohiogal- First off you implied that i think a physician is more important and works harder than a janitor. I do not think that way at all. You also implied that i said only the elite should have children. I never implied any one of those. I did say if you are going to have children you should at least make time for them. What is the point for someone to have children and not spend time with them? I will again say if you have children and don't make the time for them then you as a parent have failed them.

Also you have implied that i think parents are the only ones that should help their children. I do not think that way. However the parents should be their for their children other than just working how ever many jobs and not making time for their children. I am a strong believer that it does take more than just the parents to raise children. Many people have been involved in my children's lives that helped make them who they are today. I am a very busy man. I am gone a lot during a year. However i will always make time for my children. My wife and i had them it is our responsibility to see that our children are brought up properly.

My parents and many of my family members were around when the depression was here. My father did not go any further than the 7th grade. However my father and mother always made time for all of us kids. No matter what was going on in our lives. Of course they had help from others. But you know what they were always their when i or anyone of my brothers or sisters needed them.

I also think people should be able to have money, and have affordable health care. However while the parent is out their working they still need to make the appropriate time for their children. For example. One of my brothers has three children. He has pawned his own children off on almost all of my family. His children now live with my wife and kids. They get the attention from my wife and i that my brother and his wife should be giving them. It is sad that their are so many children out there like my nephews that parents do not make time for them. I don't care how many jobs you have to work, you MAKE time for your children.

Yes i am pointing my finger at many parents. Yes there are some situations out there that can not be helped. Having to work three jobs is no reason not to spend time with the children you brought into this world. Parents that do not make time for their own children have failed them. Yes i am harsh opinions on this kind of things. Look at all the kids having kids having children that can not even afford themselves let alone afford having any children. How is that helping anything? How is that good for the children coming into this world to have parents that can't even take care of themselves? Another example i have a friend and his daughter has three children. His daughter and the three children live with him. She does not have a job. She depends on others to raise her children while she goes out and does her own thing. She has had a few jobs but she keeps loosing them. She and the kids father have failed those children. I know those three children and they don't deserve to have parents like that. Those are the type of people that have no business having children. Those types of parents are the ones i am talking about. I am not comparing a janitor to a Doctor.

You say we need to invest in the new generation. I agree with you to a point. We don't need to keep allowing these people that can't afford to get a hamburger off the McDonald's dollar menu to be having children. If you are talking about investing in people like that i am sorry i do not agree one bit. My sister and brother-inlaw are foster parents. They have four kids of their own and have four foster children. All the foster children are brothers. They had parents that did not make time for them. Those foster children deserved so much more than what they got. Don't get me wrong they are getting well taken care of and not to mention they get the attention they need that should be done by the people that had them. They are good kids.

Also look at all the kids that are dropping out of school. My wife is a teacher and has been for over 20 years. She stays after school everyday to help children that need that extra help in school. She is there every morning an hour before school to do the same thing. She helps all kids in any grade that needs the extra help. She is always talking about the kids dropping out of school. She says that the kids that are dropping out ( at least in her school ) have parents that just don't get involved or help with their children's education. Its not just the schools responsibility to educate the children. It takes the parents as well. So yes i again am pointing my fingers at the parents that kids drop out of school. I am not talking about the depression times i am talking about in todays time. I would point the finger at myself if any one of my children ever dropped out of school. That would mean i FAILED my child not the school not anyone else, that would mean i failed them. People need to stop blaming the drop out rate, the intelligence of our children on the Government. It all falls back on the parents in most cases. I am not talking about children that are mentally challenged.

Is my opinion a harsh one? Well some would say yes. However look at the kids that get the love, attention and the guidence from their parents that MAKE the time for their children ( I am talking about the Janitor all the way to the Doctor ). Those are the children that are not falling behind. Those are the children that have values. Those are the children that don't drop out of school.

Don't get me wrong i do agree with a lot of what you have said. I am in no way trying to argue with you or anything like that. I am in no way talking down on the people that work three jobs. I am for sure not implying that a Doctor is a better parent than a Janitor or that one or the other is more elite than the other. I am just pointing my finger at the people that FAIL or have FAILED their own children...... There is no excuse for failing your children.

Parents that do not make time for their own children have failed them.

I couln't agree more, Kenny. You have no idea of the personal sacrifices we've made to insure that our children are raised by their parents. They are never alone or neglected, and we put in all the time nescessary to raise 'em right and see that we instill them with good values. And I do it gladly. It really is no sacrifice. I see it as my responsibility and my job. Also I crazy love them, so that makes it easy. Children raised by loving, attentive parents can not help but be well adjusted and successful. If there were more parents like you, Kenny, the world would be a better place. God Bless.

- First off you implied that i think a physician is more important and works harder than a janitor

I'm not implying this I know this. Trust me, the hardest part of medicine is getting into med school. The next to hardest part is residency, which i'll be matching in two years. After that its clear sailing. I never heard a practicing physician talk about the grueling painstaking backbreaking hard work. (trust me for the 250K im paying for my education, if working as a doctor was harder than working as janitor, id drop out and just be a janitor.)

In fact, those that work hard hours and jobs choose those hours and jobs. But you don't have to take my word for it, go talk to some physicians and ask them if their job is harder than blue collar jobs. You'd be suprised at the answers.

Again i think we agree more then disagree. However, you are speaking idealistically, and i am looking at it more realistically. you don't make it better by pointing fingers at people or telling people they can't have kids they can't afford just because the dynamics of society has changed. you have to look to see what has worked and look to see how to make it better. Blaming the parents have gotten us where we are today. Our children lag behind other industrialized counties in education.

Your theory on the time to spend with kids is easily dismantled if you look at the japanese. For japanese work longer hours than americans but yet their kids do better than ours in secondary and primary education. Why? because they invest in their school systems.

Again, no one disagrees with the fact that parents should be available to their kids. We also think they shouldn't abuse or neglect them. But we know that none of these are reality. So the question isn't what we should idealistically be doing, it is what can we realistically do to ensure that it doesn't happen (at least as often) in the future.

ohiogal- I can agree with ya there. I miss understood what you were saying in your earlier comment about Physicians and Janitors. I thought you were saying that i thought people like Janitors should not have children. I understand how much work it takes to be a Physician to a point. My Aunt is a Surgeon and a Director of a very large Hospital so i do have a little of an idea. Also Good luck in your journey to becoming a Physician.

Also i would like to touch on the Physician and Janitor thing a little. Let me put it like this. I am an African American Marine Officer. I am an XO of a Battalion. I have worked very hard to get where i am today. I look at it like this, I am no better than anyone that is out there working for a living to provide for their family. I don't care what you are from a Janitor all the way to the President. It is not what kind of job you have in this world it is the Values that you have and instill in your daily life and teach your children.

well thank you for your service Kenny. I think being a marine is 100x harder than being a physician and u guys should be paid 100 times more for it.

My Aunt is a Surgeon and a Director of a very large Hospital so i do have a little of an idea

hmmmm does she write recommendations? j/k.

She sounds like an amazing person. you'd have to be to handle that kind of job.

In the end, I suppose i have more of a different look on hard work than some of my peers, because i actually had to do back breaking work to get through undergrad and grad, so i have something to compare it to.

It is not what kind of job you have in this world it is the Values that you have and instill in your daily life and teach your children

Agreed, and I do think the majority of Americans are trying to teach their children the best they can, i just think because of the economic times we are having it becomes a lot harder.

ohiogal- Thank you. I again wish you luck for the future.

I don't think i really ever answered the main question properly. Are white people more intelligent than black people???

Well here is my opinion. I do think that there are way more intelligent white people than there are blacks. That being said i do not think it has anything to do with genetics in most cases. To me it all has to do with your surroundings when you are at a very young age and then through out your young adult life. If your parents or who ever raises you does not do their part in guiding you and grooming you for the future then you have the not so intelligent children. Sometimes parents do not get involved and some other adult plays the role the parents should be playing. I have been to the "Projects" where there at least in my area mainly blacks ( there are a few whites there). I go there with my wife. She is a school teacher and goes there often to help these children of all school ages. To me it is sad very sad. These children have the potential to be so intelligent yet their parents fail them. Don't take what i am saying the wrong way. I am in no way saying people that live in the project areas are not intelligent. There are some children that make it through and are very intelligent. When i go with my wife there most the parents are drunk or high on some sort of drugs and their kids are running around not being supervised. You have children that are in the 7th grade that can not even read at a 1st grade level. Is that the schools fault? Partly yes. To me the parent is ultimately to blame for this. I could go on and on but i am going to stop. I hope no one takes this the wrong way.

I am a Black man that happened to grow up in a very poor family. We did not live in the projects but we lived in some really bad places. The number one priority of my parents was that my self and my brothers and sisters got good educations. We did get very good educations. All my brothers and sisters including myself went to college. I enlisted in the Marines first and did time and then went to college. I am currently a Marine Officer and have been for over 18 years. To me if your parents or who ever is raising does not make their number one priority their children and their education then they have failed their children. Yes i now people have to work to provide for their families and it is hard to make that time for your children sometimes, but it is your obligation as a parent to make that time needed.

kenny75069

I don't think i really ever answered the main question properly. Are white people more intelligent than black people???

Intelligence has nothing to do with your environment, it's an ability you're born with. Child prodigies and the like, whose extraordinary abilities are detected while they are still quite young, had not yet had time to be influenced, either positively or negatively by their environment. Sometimes average parents have children with exceptionally high IQs

I'm all for positive child rearing by giving your child every advantage possible, including a college education if one can afford it, but that's not what makes a person intelligent. To me, intelligence is an inherent ability to perceive and process information correctly. Wikipedia says:

"Intelligence comes from the Latin verb intellegere, which means "to understand". By this rationale, intelligence (as understanding) is arguably different from being "smart" (able to adapt to one's environment).

I've read more than a few comments on the internet from people who believe that black people are genetically less intelligent than whites and are their inferiors. We know that they sincerely believe(d) this, because it's in many of the historical documents and in other places where what they actually thought & felt can be read.

I've read more than a few comments on the internet from people who believe that black people are genetically less intelligent than whites and are their inferiors

That's the real bogus part of this conversation - and I'm still not sure if that's what's being alluded to. I sure hope no one actually believes that.

Are white people more intelligent than black people

As someone who has done research in neuroscience and aims to match in neurology. I am going to say absolutely and unequivocally, no.

there is no genetic trait that is bounded by race. the central nervous system, like all other organ systems, is not influenced by race. Intelligence is not linked to race, any more than it is linked to freckles, hair color, or height.

This statement assumes that intelligence is determined by genetics. Meaning that no matter what happens in a kids life intellgence can not be changed because, like all other genetic traits, it is innate.

The best example I can think of that falsifies this is the research done on feral children.

A feral child (feral, wild, or undomesticated) is a human child who has lived isolated from human contact from a very young age, and has no (or little) experience of human care, loving or social behavior, and, crucially, of human language.^[1]

also . . .

feral children lack the basic social skills which are normally learned in the process of enculturation. For example, they may be unable to learn to use a toilet, have trouble learning to walk upright and display a complete lack of interest in the human activity around them. They often seem mentally impaired and have almost insurmountable trouble learning a human language. The impaired ability to learn language after having been isolated for so many years is often attributed to the existence of a critical period for language learning, and taken as evidence in favor of the Critical Period Hypothesis.^{[citation needed]} It is almost impossible to convert a child who became isolated at a very young age into a relatively normal member of society and such individuals need close care throughout their lives.^{[citation needed]} When they are "discovered", feral children tend to become the subject of lively scientific and media interest. Once the excitement dies down and their limitations in terms of learning culture and social behavior become obvious, frustration can set in and they often spend the rest of their lives being passed from one caregiver to another.^{[citation needed]} It is common for them to die young, though their potential lifespan if they had been left in the wild is difficult to know

If genetics were a key factor in intelligence, then environment couldn't change it.

The wiki article from above talks about the 'critical period' which occurs during the first several years of the child's life when the neural signals are still pruning. This is when intelligence is honed, and if that window is missed, future learning can become much harder. And as for these abandoned children, it becomes an impossibility.

Child prodigies and the like, whose extraordinary abilities are detected while they are still quite young, had not yet had time to be influenced, either positively or negatively by their environment.

Child prodgies have nothing to do with race, it has to do with a mutation that increases long term potentiation in nerve cells. And enviormental influence begin in the womb, so yes, they can be influenced by enviorment.

I really don't like this term, but i'm sure you have heard of idiot savants? Autistic people who are able to memorize phone books or replicate art after a limited exposure. One mechanism for this is a mutation that elongates the axons of the brain. It allows the LTP of nerve cells to retain information, but at the same time hinders other brain functions leading to the autistic behaviors. Autistic children are said to be more intelligent than their peers. The more severe the autistim, the higher the intelligence.

Intelligence that mutates out side of the norm rarely is a good thing, thats when you get your ted bundies and jeffery dahmers. (both had ridiculously high iqs and i think dahmer had an extra chromosome)

Every once in a while you'll get a 3 year old solving rubix cubes, but again, just like everything else, these rare kids are not bounded by race.

I sure hope no one actually believes that.

I hope so too.

However, realistically people do. Cris's poll results is an indicator of that

Ohiogirl would you mind elaborating on the following please:

Child prodgies have nothing to do with race, it has to do with a mutation that increases long term potentiation in nerve cells. And enviormental influence begin in the womb, so yes, they can be influenced by enviorment.

What environmental influences and how does that affect the intelligence that the child is born with? I'm not talking about health care, I'm asking what is considered good, bad and neutral in the environment of the mother that can influence intelligence, if that's what you're saying.

Mariyam,

I can pretty much sum it up in one word. Stress. Stress is a physiological response to external stimuli (or environmental influences) Substance abuse, trauma to the mother (i.e. domestic violence), lack of prenatal care, etc. all are considered environmental factors which can affect neuronal development in the womb.

when a fetus or person undergoes stress they release certian hormones which slow down and influences the rate of neuronal growth and development. Children who undergo stress are more likely to score lower in IQ tests, become frustrated when learning, and are less likely to attend higher education.

When children are in the infant stage, if they are unable to bond effectively to their caregivers (Secure attachment) they are also going to have the above results.

Unlike, skin and blood, all the nerve cells that you will have in life are created in the womb. Nerve cells do not reproduce. However after birth they do whats called a 'pruning stage' where many nerve connections are trimmed to create the most effective connection. Here is where learning is optimal, why kids can learn languages in less than three years, where behavioral patterns are picked up, and where IQ is most likely to be influenced.

Pruning continues until about the age 25, however each year it drops exponentially and the later you are exposed to new things, the harder it becomes to learn them.

Any enviormental influence, (stimulation in the form of learning or hindrance in the form of abuse) of those years, will affect people for the rest of their lives.

So what is a good environment? healthy nurturing atmosphere for fetuses and infants, and exposure to new stimuli, (i.e. reading, math, arts) during the first 3 years of a kids life. diet and exercise is also known to influence IQ at that age.

Bad environment is anything that is stressful and can cause release of those harmful hormones that will 'stunt' children development.

Neutral will probably be a lack of diverse stimuli. I guess the best example would be sticking your 2 year old in front of the tv for the entire day. The child is still getting stimuli, but none that will probably be able to be used when the kid starts school.

i hope that explains some, im typing this in a hurry so i apologize in advance if its confusing.

No need to apologize it was very succinct, thank you.

So my next question would be how does a child born into an adverse situation, with any or all of the conditions you listed for example, still manage to have a high IQ if it's not something that the child is born with?

Also I thought sticking a kid in front of the TV all day and using it for a baby sitter is considered bad for them (negative environment), unless I guess they watching some learning/teaching program preferably one where they are required to interact to some degree not merely watch.

So when the Romans conquered Britain, did they find a race of articulate inventors and gentry? of course not! Us native Britains were considered savages.The first thing on the road to intelligence societies is being civilised.Black people in the UK are starting to blossom.In all walks of life black people are starting too throw off all the old stereotypes.A black chap even won the prestigious UK Mastermind competition, something many decades ago would be seen as impossible.Given time, and encouragement all peoples of different races can become intelligent, articulate and complex.Just take us UK savages for instance.Could you imagine telling the commandeering chief of Roman conquering Britain that these savages in the space of a few hundred years would go on and produce the best inventors, writers ect and biggest empire the worlds ever seen? Exactly, they would of laughed themselves too death.

Virtually all complex traits, and even many simple ones like height, are a combination of heredity and environment. This is because your DNA only represents POTENTIAL; there are still a lot of environmental factors that influence whether that potential will be realized. Even child prodigies typically had something in their environment influencing them; for example, Mozart was born into a highly musical family, even if his gifts surpassed the rest of the family's. OTOH if he had been discouraged, ridiculed, ignored or even abused for his gifts, I doubt we'd have his music today. You can point to authors like Richard Wright, who in his book "Black Boy" tells how many people including family ridiculed his dream of being an author. One particularly ignorant relative even said writing fiction makes you a "liar". But even he had SOME encouragement for SOMEONE, as when he managed to get a story of his published in the newspaper while still a child. (And writing is somewhat unique because you can develop your imagination in your head nobody what the outside world thinks.)

At this point in our knowledge, it's silly to argue about whether intelligence and talent are a matter of "heredity or environment" as they are clearly both. But once a child is born, the only thing you can do anything about is the environmental component. So I very much agree with Kenny.

BTW, there are plenty of wealthy white people who are so wrapped up in their careers that their own kids are neglected. If they only get their values and role modeling from uneducated babysitters, they will seldom achieve anything like what the parents did.

I guess I wasn't thinking of "wealthy" on quite that level. More like two doctors who hire a recent immigrant from Guatemala who never finished the equivalent of high school, and there are a LOT of people like that. The child still knows if he's being ignored and his parents don't really care. I don't think any sitter can make that up to the child.

Very nice bigoted screed. Good Lord.

Lets say you go back before slavery and the formation of the USA, there is almost no historical records of people within Africa making any significant world scientific, mathematical, astrological or otherwise discoveries. Africans did not build boats and explore the world even though their contient is nearly all surrounded with ocean. They predominatly lived in small hunting villages much like some tribes do STILL live today in Africa. They did not discover how to make the wheel(it's assumed it was probably discovered in Asia but nobody is proposing it was discovered in Africa).

This is completely false. Even if you stop and just think about it logically for two seconds you can see this. Man originated in Africa. How did Man spread to Middle East/Asia without a boat??A simple Google of African archaeology will dispel most of these bigoted misconceptions.

Now, I may be wrong but I think the situation hasn't changed much from what it used to be. Most famous/successful black people are entertainers. Which goes back to my point: Why don't we see more famous black people in intelectual areas: Engineers, Architects, Politicians, inventors, etc.

Two things: first, the situation has not changed much, so to say 'now they have opportunity' is disingenuous. Secondly, the successes are invisible to mainstream America. You don't see them because they aren't significant to Whites, not because they aren't there. This also causes a negative feedback, making it appear to young Blacks the same way it appears to you; the only way to achieve is sports, music, or crime.

Of course, the idea is completely false.

Here is a list of scientists who work at places like Johns Hopkins, the National Zoo, and Nasa.

And an excerpt:

"My father introduced me to three black men who had earned doctorates in chemistry and physics," says West. "The best jobs they could find were at the post office. My father said I was taking the long road toward working at the post office."

Man originated in Africa.

Are you suggesting this as an hypothesis or do you somehow have first hand knowledge?

Are you suggesting this as an hypothesis or do you somehow have first hand knowledge?

Are you suggesting an alternative to all the known scientific evidence?

What do you mean with: "the situation has not changed much"

You said:

Now, I may be wrong but I think the situation hasn't changed much from what it used to be.

And I agree. Blacks are still kept from all sorts of things, from education to housing to job opportunities. The subject of this article, Watson, decried the abilities of Black workers in general. With that kind of attitude extant, it isn't surprising that Blacks are still being denied opportunities.

Saying 'now they have opportunity' is disingenuous because while there is more opportunity than in the past, Blacks are still excluded, and while there are more opportunities, it hasn't even been fifty years since it was OK by law to discriminate by skin color in this country. Forty years is barely a generation. Not long enough to correct 400 years of oppression.

the only thing keeping black people from being successful to day is the lame excuse of racism.They cant get a job they whine-its cause I'm black,the fail a test ,they whine-it was racist. There are many black people who are successful in life,they didnt whine about crap,they tried and succeded.I see more black racist than white!

According to something someone posted earlier,it would lead me to believe that even black people wont hire black people.I dont believe that for a minute.

I dont believe you can tell how smart someone is by their color---but color seems to be a good excuse for failure.

the only thing keeping black people from being successful to day is the lame excuse of racism.They cant get a job they whine-its cause I'm black,the fail a test ,they whine-it was racist. There are many black people who are successful in life,they didnt whine about crap,they tried and succeded.I see more black racist than white!

How absurd. Every struggling Black is not crying racism. In fact, it is quite racist for you to lump them all together and say so.

And maybe you don't see racism against Blacks because...you...are...not...Black!

Are you suggesting an alternative to all the known scientific evidence?

No, but you need to draw a distinction between between theory and fact.

I'm fine, thanks. If you have some evidence to the contrary, why don't you present it. No? I thought not.

I didn't say I had evidence to the contrary. Regardless of where the evidence points, without definitive proof your comment cannot be presented as fact. Without understanding what I said in my previous comment, you run the risk appearing ignorant.

Without understanding what I said in my previous comment, you run the risk appearing ignorant.

Interesting. So if I don't find your post relevant or pertinent, then I am lacking in understanding and ignorant.

It appears that it is you who is ignorant of the accepted standards for evidence, proof, fact, and tact.

Well, thanks for proving my point.

Still nothing to ad but admonitions? No facts, not even a theory? Just here to criticize those who you don't agree with?

If you were asked this question and were not emotionally affected by it

What exactly does emotion have to do with it?

The fact is, Modern Humans originated in Africa. Period. That is a fact.If anyone has evidence to the contrary, or any other reason that modern science should not regard this fact as such, please let me know.

No?

i didnt mean to imply that ALL black people whine about racism,because they dont.But many still do.They read racism into places that it is not.If you think I'm wrong,its probably because ..you... are...one..of..them!

Yes,racism is still around-it always will be.There will always be narrow minded idiots who think there problems are because they are different or because someone else is different.When will people start accepting responsibility for there own lives and quit blaming others for there problems?

I dont feel I'm a racist,and my black friends dont either.

They read racism into places that it is not.If you think I'm wrong,its probably because ..you... are...one..of..them!

Just imagine if you applied your standard to victims of rape or molestation.

that makes no sense to me.You cant get a job because you were raped?You may think someone is discriminating against you when they arent-that may be your perception.If you are raped,it is fact-not a perception or paranoid thought.There is no intelligent comparison of the two.

If someone is raped they may be paranoid of being raped again-it doesnt mean that they will be raped again.If a black woman is raped by a white man-it doesnt mean all white men are rapists.

James -you probably think I'm a racist-does that mean you think all Irish-Mexican-Americans are racists?

You cant get a job because you were raped?

You missed the point:

i didnt mean to imply that ALL [children] whine about [molestation],because they dont.But many still do.They read [molestation] into places that it is not.If you think I'm wrong,its probably because ..you... are...one..of..them!

Of course, that is exactly the attitude many people do have.

James -you probably think I'm a racist-does that mean you think all Irish-Mexican-Americans are racists?

I think you have racist views that you use to support racist arguments in a bigoted fallacy of bare assertion.

Yes,racism is still around-it always will be...When will people start accepting responsibility for there own lives and quit blaming others for there problems?

What is someone to do when there are people like you who acknowledge the existence of racism on one hand, then declaim the need for personal responsibility on the other?

I see more people blaming their own failure (or lack of ambition) on people they THINK are discriminating against them than really are.

The lame lazy whinning trash that cry "racism" everytime something doesnt go the way they want perpetuate racism.They put racism where it is not, and give narrow minded bigots an excuse to be racist.

You think I have racist views because I'm tired of people crying racism where it is not?

There are many black people who wrongly assume all white people are racist,they learn it from their racist parents.Just as some whites raise their kids to be racists.Its wrong and I wish it would stop.Dont even try telling me that there are not racist black people.

Your comments seem to defend and excuse black racism.I dont think there is a good reason for racism,it sounds like you do...

I see more people blaming their own failure (or lack of ambition) on people they THINK are discriminating against them than really are.

OK. Where? Who?

The lame lazy whinning trash that cry "racism" everytime something doesnt go the way they want perpetuate racism.

Who are these people and where are they?

There are many black people who wrongly assume all white people are racist,they learn it from their racist parents.

Do you have an example? Who are these "many" people?

You say:

They put racism where it is not, and give narrow minded bigots an excuse to be racist.

Then you say:

I dont think there is a good reason for racism

So which is it? Are there reasons to be racist or not? It seems by your logic that if 'Black racism' gives Whites an excuse to be racist, then 'White racism' gives Blacks an excuse.

No? Only works for Whites?

their are people who look for any reason to say they are better than others,and there are people who look for reasons to say they are being treated unfairly.In my opinion,there is know excuse for racism.But narrow minded bigots will find what they consider reasons.

as for your other questions-you have been reading the comments on this thread,I had thought that you were an intelligent person.But if you are so lost that you cant follow the subject or the conversation ,I must have been mistaken.

there is no excuse for white or black racism,they are both wrong and destructive to society

I'm sorry, did you want names and addresses?LOL!

Buzzman1313- I agree with your statement 100% ( 80.25)

I am a Black man. I am a Marine Officer and have been for over 18 years and counting. I am tired of hearing myself of people playing the race card. I have got where i am today because of hard work and how i was raised. I have never once ever blamed anyone for my misfortunes in life. I can not stand it every time i hear someone playing the race card. I understand what you are getting at and agree.

I had thought that you were an intelligent person.But if you are so lost that you cant follow the subject or the conversation ,I must have been mistaken.

I'm sorry, did you want names and addresses?LOL!

You can dial down the snark. Thanks.

What I "want" is for you to give one example or incident, or piece of evidence to support, or at least explain, the assertions you are making.

Who do you know that is not taking responsibility for themselves?

Who have you seen crying racism where there was none?

Who have you heard of that wanted standards lowered to their benefit?

You seem so convinced. You as well as others. Surely you can provide some examples of what you say. Where have you seen this insidious problem of Black racism?

I think your response is irrelevant in this case.

Of course you do.

I just don't think it's fair to compare this topic to the situation of victims of rape and molestation.

I have yet another question. You folks keep making assertions about what is fact, what is fair, what is appropriate, and about the current state of racism in the USA. If you are all so adamant, why is it not one of you will answer a single question to clarify or support your position? Why is that?

Plenty of assertions, but no evidence or examples, not even an anecdotal one.

I think it is entirely fair to compare this topic to rape and molestation. People often accuse the victims of rape or molestation of 'imagining' the things that happened to them, or of 'making things up' to get attention, or get their way.

When people like you make these assertions about Black racism without a single shred of evidence to show that it even exists, you are doing the exact same thing.

So are we going to see more critiques of my posts, or are we going to have an actual discussion? You know, where you help me understand your position better by answering a few questions, as I have done repeatedly.

It sure looks like I have put my self out there and supported my position with facts, while you folks pat each other on the back and criticize me and Blacks.

Where are all these Blacks crying racism when it isn't there? Why won't you answer one single question to support your assertions?

who are these people that"Think" they were raped but werent?where are these people that "imagined" molestation,but werent?

I have been to prison a few times and have heard MANY black men say they got arrested cause they were black.They got searched cause they were black.They couldnt get a job cause they were black-Thats all BS!!They were in prison for the same thing I was-breaking the law.They got searched because they were standing on a street corner selling crack,running from car to car.They couldnt get a job for the same reason I couldnt-they didnt want one!we were happy selling drugs,drinking,getting high and doing what ever we wanted-till we got caught.

you asked for an anecdote,does that count as one?

FYI-I work as a journeyman carpenter now and have been booze and drug free for years.I should be off parole by 2013.

most peoples legal problems are not because of their race,they are because of their actions.

you asked for an anecdote,does that count as one?

It certainly does. And it's an informative one.

I dont mean to suggest that racism doesnt exist,I know it does.What I meant was that I think it is very lame of a person to play the race card in a circumstance where race was not really a factor.And I have actually seen whites,blacks,asians and hispanics all blame racism at one time or another.

God knows a minority has more assistance available to them than any white person.

Really? Like what?

America government was based on the Iroquois nation. A council of men deciding for the people as opposed to one man (King)

this is as a major influence is what i was taught by my political science classes.

For those who are using slavery as a crutch to the lack of development of black are forgetting that slaves came from many other location other than Africa. There was even white slaves, Indentured Servants (Polite way of saying slave), Native American, Mexican, Haitian, Jamaicans and the list goes on. IMO, people are only going to improve as far as they want to. If it was true the case of blacks being stopped, the why have so many made their way out of the ghettos in a honest fashion by studying and taking advantage of all the programs available to them. God knows a minority has more assistance available to them than any white person.

during slavery, of which we are a mere 135 years removed if you don't add post bellum apprenticeships which allowed the exslave owners to take the children of former slaves and keep them until they were 21 (that alone would extend slavery for a child born in 1864 until at least 1885, but that institution lasted until 1919) black people were not even allowed to be taught to read under punishment of death. the lives of the exslaves were not particularly nice as they had to endure eh "black codes which were even harder than slavery according to historians. then we were completely sold out by the tilden/hayes compromise which ended reconstruction and the opportunities of receiving schooling from the black schools run by missionary groups as they were run out of the south under pain of death. then there was the sharecropper era which groups like the kkk and white citizens council made sure that blacks did not get to much education because it made them "uppidy. the majority of black people were consigned to the farm as serfs by the local law enforcement and the lack of any other way for the family to survive. segregation made it plain that the south and much of the rest of the country would be separate and unequal for the black citizens. add that calvin cooledge allowed slavery to be reintroduced after the "great flood of 1928". the list of atrocities like lynching and the other social means of keeping "blacks in their place".

and you ask the black posters in this thread the why of black black social underachievement? even among the black people who have "made it" materially there is a ton of baggage related to history.

we didnot get to colonize the country while caucasians did.

we did not get to participate in those events like the oklahoma land rush in which free land was given to caucasians to develop wealth

we did not get to participate in the "good old boys networks" where wealth was developed, business relationships made, and the political future of this country decided

we did not get to segregate, intimidate, and terrorize caucasians and make them be our serfs to use to develop wealth (sharecropping is one example)

and

when we did develop self sustaining communities (rosewood , florida and greenwood- tulsa, oklahoma)

THEY WERE BURNED DOWN TO THE GROUND BY CAUCASIANS WHO COULD NOT STAND BLACK PEOPLE BEING INDEPENDENT!

God knows a minority has more assistance available to them than any white person.

White women are the largest group of minorities.

The minority category has is not just about skin tone.

Equal treatment doesn't mean, lower the standard for me, or take me instead of a white who has better grades, better record... just because I'm black.

Who is asking for this?

Joann- 1287619- I can understand where you are meaning from your comment on #85. I think if you worded it a little different it would not come across as how so many people are going to take it.

I am an African American. I have worked very hard to get where i am today. My wife has done the same. My wife is a Teacher / Vice Principal. I am a Marine Officer with 18 + years and counting. All my children ( i have 4 ) make A's and B's in school. All my extended family are either in law enforcement, Military, Teachers and a few Lawyers. I can agree with your statement above. I do not think it is a racist comment at all. I am sure others will.

I can agree with your statement above.

Really?

Then maybe you will answer:

Who is talking about Whites holding Blacks down? What Blacks aren't taking responsibility for themselves? Who, exactly, is asking for standards to be lowered?

When time and time again, in this column alone, these questions go unanswered, it sure seems like bigotry to me.

Changed my mind, not getting into it.

rebuttal to ron black's ignorance

Nicely put, PPinLA!

And intelligence can of course be measured in various ways besides standard tests.

Not according to research using Raven's Progressive Matrices, which is a non-verbal test of GMA that deals solely with recognizing and applying patterns. As others have stated, it does no good to generalize the characteristics of groups to individuals. Everyone is unique. Saying that all members of a group are this, or all members of a group are that can be easily refuted. It is like saying, "All Asians have small di๑ks, or all blacks are good at basketball, or all Arabs are terrorists."

There are two types of people; people who think there are two types of people and those who don't.

I clicked your link a few times and it doesn't go anywhere. Is this the beginning of the IQ test?

LOL @ Mightyj!

James, true, and no ethnic group has a monopoly on intelligence, or mean behavior, or biased attitude, All have some who are capable of the same human emotions of nice people, mean people, prejudice people, etc. In other words, every human emotion and capabilities exist in all ethnic groups, so trying to limit or believe one is more or less than another is pointless; that type rule will not conform. The differences we may have are in our cultures, religious beliefs and practices---not in ability or emotion. God created us all equal in those areas, but did not give each individual the same ability or talent, or intellect; he, also, created us equal in importance, however, some humans, in each group, decided to revise that to THEIR way of thinking, and, one day, they will get a rude awakening by the creator of us all.

P.S. I am part Cherokee, btw.